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  #31  
Old 07-23-2012, 02:45 PM
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yeah i take that back... i thought this all went down outside the theater(like outside outside....), like everyone was lined up waiting.

yeah dark theater, gas, screaming, must have been a complete cluster fuck.... shits terrible
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:03 PM
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This isn't per sť directed at you Vic, more just the thought.

There seems to be two camps with this whole thing. Those who picture people wildly shooting off their guns and therefore shouldn't. And those who see how quickly this woulda been different if many other variables were present.


He had a vest on,not some magical BODY ARMOR that makes him totally bullet proof. His head and every other part of his body were exposed outside the vest. Also, getting shot with a vest on fucking hurts. It will put you on the floor if not knock you out. Granted adrenalin is amazing. But this isn't tv or the movies.

Worse? Really? If he had thought there was a chance he'd get shot, there's a small chance he'd have thought different. Probably not. A few pointed shots and this woulda been over faster. Chances are he woulda focussed on the other person shooting. But the second those gas canisters went off and he fired the gun in the air, you still woulda known where he was if you were paying attention. And see him, yes he had a dispersal unit, but the gas still doesn't magically take up full volume of the room. Making shooting him pretty straight forward. Hell, you probably coulda used the gas to your advantage.(maybe not if it was tear gas) He also probably woulda retreated or acted allot different under fire. In either case, three other things woulda happen. He woulda focus on you, the shooter, distracting him giving people time to get out, kill you, then go back to it. He would have retreated/hit the deck, giving more time for people to escape. Or, you kill him. So, no, I don't think it would have been A LOT WORSE.

It's not pitch black in a theater. When you take your eyes off the screen, it's actually quite bright.

Shooting guns is a skill like martial arts, driving a car or anything else. So is tactical training and thought. I understand not everyone has invested much if any time in either shooting or tactical training. Its not that hard to get a CCW just like it's not hard to get a drivers license. I get all the factors in that regard, and why not every person who has a CCW knows what they are doing. still, had he thought, "I won't get three shots off... " Who knows?

I do agree there's nothing that we can do to avoid people like him doing stuff like this. He is the type A person for this crime. White, highly intelligent, and highly educated. That is the profile for these types of crimes. He was very clear on what he was doing and why it was safe for him. We really won't know more till they psychologically evaluate him. Ill be curious to see what bill he fits.

He exploited the situation. He knew full well that as chip stated earlier all law abiding citizens would not have their weapons. Movie theaters are "block parties" which means no guns. Granted having a CCW you coooould bring it in. And frankly I'd gladly take the heat from the cops for having brought my weapon in this scenario.

I'm not saying I have the answer or perfect solution. It just strikes a cord when people empower these types of killers by saying that body armor makes him invincible. And that other people shooting at him would make it worse.

I guess that's the classic scene isn't it. Hero vs Villan. And everyone else scatters and/or gets killed. Too bad only the villan showed up this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VicSkimmr View Post

Dark theater, crazed gunman in BODY ARMOR, panicked crowd, and some armed civilians trying to take him down?

You're right, it would have turned out A LOT WORSE.





edit: One day we'll realize that there's really nothing we can do to "fix" this problem. Crazy people are crazy and no amount of regulation/law will prevent them from doing crazy things.

Last edited by Bombardier; 07-23-2012 at 06:42 PM..
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:38 PM
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I think just knowing that allot of people in a public place are carrying would deter something like this from happening at least a little.

how man people in a theater a 100, if having a CCW was much more common, so common that you could say at least 10 people in a given theater are carrying. he probably would have thought twice... I'm sure he thought there is now way i would have to worry about getting shot there.

Am i making sense?
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:40 PM
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I'm firmly planted in the other side of this, and don't take this as being directed at you personally.

I know that not all concealed carriers are crazy gun-nuts who have no training and think they're a cowboy. In fact, I know that the vast majority of them aren't. Some are, but most aren't. I also don't have a problem with people who choose to do it. It's legal after all, I just don't agree with their decision and I don't like the idea that I'm around them day to day.

What you see as a chance to minimize the situation, I see as a chance to escalate it. Could someone have potentially shot him and taken him down? Sure. Aside from the fact that it's dark in there, you'd be getting shot at, people would be screaming bloody murder and running around, and gas would be impairing vision, sure, someone might have been able to get a shot off on him, assuming they don't have the jitters from being shot at, or being so pumped full of adrenalin themselves they couldn't sight in correctly, or get bumped by all of the people around them flailing around in a panic, etc.

Or, and this seems much more likely to me, they could have injured/killed a bystander, which would make them no better than the gunman, causing even more heartache and death of innocents.

It's easy to visualize the scenario where someone could take the gunman down and minimize casualties, I just don't think it's very realistic. Unless said person has been in the military and has been in that type of situation before, I don't think anyone can really predict how you would react. Most people I think would be scared shitless. I know I sure as hell would.


When it comes down to it, shooting stuff is hard. I know, I grew up in rural Virginia. I still shoot guns almost every time I go home. Hitting a stationary target is difficult enough even in a controlled environment, and pistols are harder than any other type of firearm I've shot. I can't even imagine trying to fire at someone who is shooting back at you, let alone doing it in a dark room filled to the brim with panicking people.

On top of that, I just don't trust people in general. For the most part, I find them idiotic. I don't trust them with anything that could potentially kill another person, whether that be a car or a gun. In fact, I can't even imagine one scenario where I would want to be next to someone who conceals a weapon, as that just adds one more variable to the scenario that could get me killed.
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole9953 View Post
I think just knowing that allot of people in a public place are carrying would deter something like this from happening at least a little.

how man people in a theater a 100, if having a CCW was much more common, so common that you could say at least 10 people in a given theater are carrying. he probably would have thought twice... I'm sure he thought there is now way i would have to worry about getting shot there.

Am i making sense?
Potentially, but I think you might be giving these people a little too much credit. If they were rational thinkers, they wouldn't be shooting innocent people for absolutely no reason.

But yeah, if CCW was extremely common, I imagine crime as a whole would drop, but I also believe that deaths would increase for the armed crimes that do happen. Right now there's a pretty good chance that armed crimes will not result in anyone dying. If you add someone carrying a concealed weapon to the scenario, the chance of death skyrockets.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:53 PM
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That's cool. It made me chuckle because I totally understand. I rant that way about people being allowed to drive with NO training. Parking and driving around the block is not training!

Unfortunately (or in my thoughts because what it showed me about my self, fortunately) I have been in some bad situations many times. So I know how I react. Maybe that's why I feel the way I do. (No I haven't been shot at, but I've had a gun pulled on me.) Due to my ability to stay collected, think and respond, I've been able to save my self, get out of very bad situations, or help others.

As for shooting skills, training matters. We actually train for adrenalin charged body position. Sounds silly, but trust me, it matters. I could go on and on about all that, but it's not the point.

As for not trusting people and thinking they are idiotic. We are 100% on the same page. It's why all the people running around screaming aren't a factor to me. I'd just ignore them and focus on my target.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. I always enjoy a quality discussion.


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Originally Posted by VicSkimmr View Post
Potentially, but I think you might be giving these people a little too much credit. If they were rational thinkers, they wouldn't be shooting innocent people for absolutely no reason.
We don't know why yet or if there is a why. He could have a Super Villan delusion for instance. He could just be mad at the world. Or both of those. He could just be off his meds. Lol really though. It's probably not "just because"

Living with a forensic psychologist has taught me one thing. It's allot more scary than you'd like to know. People like this are not crazy the way you might think. They aren't irrational. I mean yeah, in the fact they kill a bunch of innocent people they are irrational. But that doesn't mean they aren't very clear minded in their calculation and planning. Etc.

That's why I said I'll be curious where he fits. He may not even fit the psychopath category. There are very clear deliniations on things like that. So until we know more it's all just cilical blathering and speculation.

Last edited by Bombardier; 07-23-2012 at 07:09 PM..
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:38 PM
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Was he wearing body armor? Or was it a tactical vest that the media is assuming is body armor?

I really wish the media would stop using the term "assault rifle", his AR-15 is not an assault rifle, you'd think someone with half a brain working at these media outlets would do just a little bit of homework.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:48 PM
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:50 PM
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I was just about to post that. It was a tactical vest.

He was dressed like the joker before changing into his black gear. I being this up because it leans toward his having a delusion of being a villan.


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Originally Posted by RFIbanez View Post
Was he wearing body armor? Or was it a tactical vest that the media is assuming is body armor?

I really wish the media would stop using the term "assault rifle", his AR-15 is not an assault rifle, you'd think someone with half a brain working at these media outlets would do just a little bit of homework.
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2012, 11:58 PM
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It absolutely sucks that something like this has happened again. And of course politicians are going to cry for a ban on guns. I lean the other way.

I carry. Practically at all times. And for the precise reason that most people in society are idiots. I live in a city with high crime rates. The part of town i'm in is safe, but there are common areas where it's always unpredictable. It's society, it's always unpredictable. Every city has these areas. I do my best to stay away, but that doesn't always happen. And that's when I feel I need my handgun the most.

I can respect a person for not wanting to carry a handgun. But it's usually because they're engrained with the thought that "guns kill". No. As it's been stated, a gun is simply a tool. A killer will find a way. There have been murders where the "tool" was a simple screwdriver, hammer, toothbrush, rock, any other everyday item. Can these cause massacres? No. But knives can. And they have been used in some instances. The point is that if someone really wants to kill a person, they're going to do so if they're that kind of fucked up.

As for banning guns, it hasn't worked out too well for Chicago. They have a total ban on firearms. You can't transport or carry at all within Chicago city limits. Memorial Day weekend this year there were 11 people killed and 40+ injured, all from guns. Just on that one weekend. People who already have guns illegally, using guns illegally. Imagine if the whole country goes that way. You'd have idiots who don't give a shit about laws already and just giving them an open range.

However, several years ago in Colorado Springs, there was proof that guns have their place. A man goes into a large church (of all places) and opens fire. In the midst of screaming and chaos, a woman churchgoer pulls her gun and kills him. The man had over 1000 rounds on him. That woman ended would could have been a hell of a lot worse. The key factor is that she was calm, decisive, and trained in using her gun.

I've found that most people who carry take pride in target shooting and training with their guns. Hell, it's fun for most people.

The day the government decides to ban guns nationwide two things will happen. Criminals will have a field day and I'll become a hermit locked in a fortress of a house.
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  #41  
Old 07-24-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Apex View Post
I can respect a person for not wanting to carry a handgun. But it's usually because they're engrained with the thought that "guns kill". No. As it's been stated, a gun is simply a tool. A killer will find a way. There have been murders where the "tool" was a simple screwdriver, hammer, toothbrush, rock, any other everyday item. Can these cause massacres? No. But knives can. And they have been used in some instances. The point is that if someone really wants to kill a person, they're going to do so if they're that kind of fucked up.
I'd feel a lot safer if people were carrying concealed screwdrivers instead of firearms.

I didn't realize he was wearing a tactical vest, all of the early reports I read said body armor.
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  #42  
Old 07-24-2012, 01:46 PM
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hmmm...same town only a few months earlier.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/cri...-other-ignored
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  #43  
Old 07-24-2012, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicSkimmr View Post
I'd feel a lot safer if people were carrying concealed screwdrivers instead of firearms.

I didn't realize he was wearing a tactical vest, all of the early reports I read said body armor.
You'd feel safer. But that's an illusion. I'm actually better trained with sharp weapons than fire arms.

A person can do just as much damage with a screw driver. 12 people can be killed very fast. Same panic would have ensued...

Legally I can only carry a 2.5-3 in blade. The perp isn't going to care. So he shows up with a machete. So now what? You've got a concealed screw driver... It's the same thing. Same discussion.

It's just a tool. And as we say in the crafts world. Only a fool blames the tool.

In the end, other people being idiots or not. Had the shooter not had fish in a barrel. It might have been a deterrent or just different as we've seen with other cases.

Last edited by Bombardier; 07-24-2012 at 06:03 PM..
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  #44  
Old 07-24-2012, 05:56 PM
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I'd feel safer because I'd be a lot less likely to be stabbed accidentally by someone carrying one of those tools, and even if I were accidentally stabbed I'd have a lot less chance of dying. It's not an illusion.

Frankly, I just don't care how much training and practice someone says they've had, I don't want them firing weapons around me in an uncontrolled environment, ever. I don't like the idea that civilians are carrying tools that can snuff the life out of someone in the blink of an eye, especially one that takes such an extraordinary amount of skill to wield properly.

I'm usually one who is willing to change their viewpoint on topics when debating if presented with compelling evidence. I've done it many times in the past. This is one debate that I'm sure no one could convince me to change sides on.

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hmmm...same town only a few months earlier.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/cri...-other-ignored
How very christian of him to shoot to kill instead of neutralizing the threat. Intentional? Or just poor aim?
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  #45  
Old 07-24-2012, 06:12 PM
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This dude was nuts and exploited the situation very well. He had a perfect plan of attack. He hit people when the were vunerable(just watching a movie) and overwhelmed all of their senses which caused an absolute sensory overload and basically shut the brain down. I do think though that if someone had a weapon to fire back this guy would have shit his pants and ran. It is easy to shoot a weapon at anything but, it is a whole nother thing getting shot at. It is down right terrifying and if you have never expierence it the first time changes you.

On another note I would like to leave this that was put on CNN today and one comment that proves that the government can't do anything about things like this so that is why they are allowing civilians to arm themselves.

Americans support gun rights because they believe guns are necessary for self-protection. As the Georgia lawmaker who introduced the law allowing guns to be carried in bars explained:

"Folks were being robbed, assaulted -- it was becoming an issue of personal safety. The police aren't going to be able to protect you. They're going to be checking out the crime scene after you and your family's been shot or injured or assaulted or raped."


http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/23/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c2
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